Assists Discussion from v8 series

I think Wolf pretty well covered my point of view.

One thing I'll add though. A few have mentioned that braking lines help stop them causing crashes. I tend to find the reverse. I use bonnet/hood view, and if I'm right on someone's tail coming into a corner, their car tends to block the view of the braking line marker. So, unless I have an external brake marker (shadow across road, marker, cones, etc.), then I don't know where to stop until the person in front of me hits the brakes. As Teeroy knows only too well - this tends to result in disaster! However, I still prefer to use it in the v8s as they are hard enough for me to control anyway, and the BL helps me keep fairly regular times without annoying drivers all around me.

I have been trying to run without braking line in single player just to get the hang of it. Without the feel of g-forces, the feel of loss of traction, and so on, it's very hard. You just pick a point, and then try to go later or earlier next lap until you've nailed it. The faster cars (R3 - R1) are (imo) much harder for this. The R1 cars in particular can pretty well stop on a dime from 250km/h and without braking line I find it super hard to judge that.

Regarding other assists, the only one I use is an automatic clutch. It is faster to use a manual clutch, but my paddles don't work, so I use buttons to change gears which leaves me with no button for clutch. And really - pressing a button to hit the clutch is hardly a sim. :-)

Because of the glitches Forza has on certain tracks and certain cars you can't take a global approach and say now room 1 turn off breaking line etc.... Try driving these V8's in car no breaking line on Lugna Seca..... If you don't know what I'm talking about try it, you won't like it at all.

I ran Dektra's lotuses (S class race cars) in car no assists except for the above mentioned track. Some tracks and cars are harder than others and the longer the race goes the more concentration required and chance of mistakes there are.

I'm wondering how many people posting here have run a series with no assists?

Clarko's Suzuki’s series still allowed Assisted Steering (normal), which was basically minimising the assist given the slow C Class cars but I did see people loose it in front of me and not tank slap... It is an ASSIST. Step that up to Clarko's G8's we're running now, heavy low grip cars that tank slap like a bitch and yep now it's a bigger assists. If you want to drift turn on normal steering and do skids yo. The current V8's on drag tyres at 60% + wear..... ASSIST, V8's on wide race tyres not really an assist unless you loose it or are helped to do so.

As far as car view is concerned that is car dependant. With in car view Forza "race" (not street) cars glitch the sky to whiten and glare the road/window/bonnet. Some tracks and cars are worse than others. Then there is mirrors which are good in some cars and none in others. If I now changed to out of car view it would take time for me to get up to speed.

To sum up my opinion..
1. No assists means NO ASSISTS. In car, no line, no other assists...
2. The car, build, track and race length have a baring on assist advantage so race organisers use discretion to allocate these.

For the V8's I'm leaving on breaking line because of the length of the races. Maybe assisted steering for the drag tyres... I need to do some more testing.


As a suggestion for testing/fun a race could be setup with 2 buckets assisted and non assisted half the drivers in each group/bucket. Do 2 races and the drivers swap buckets for the second race.

I spent quite a lot of time on iRacing when I wasn't on here - the reason that I'm playing Forza now and don't have a current subscription is that I enjoy racing here more - I don't need to spend the entire week practising and I can still enjoy racing.

If we were to force off all assists then we should force the same user experience for all - including view..

Just for the record - my personal opinion on the Normal vs Sim steering is that Sim steering is just plain wrong.... trying to use SIM steering on a wheel when you are using anything above 270 degrees of rotation makes it essentially impossible to recover from anything more than a gentle slide = WRONG

In a way I'm glad to find out just how many people use the line. I just assumed the top lobby guys had it off regardless if it was on offer or not.

And Mr g, you mentioned possibly using assisted steering. I just assumed that was never on offer. I know you said it for drag tires but still, wouldn't that make turning just a tad too easy?

There are a few options/assists that for me have advantages and disadvantages at the same time. Eg Recoil talking about 3rd person. While from a viewing perspective it's sensational in all the areas you mentioned, you have no mirror (which I find odd) and I just can't drive properly using it. Not sure it's the right term but it puts a weird centre of gravity on it which makes turning no where near as precise. I know I know, me talking about precise turning. Apart from cockpit view, I think all other views have it over each other in different areas. That was another reason I liked the idea of everybody locked to cockpit so everyone is even. It's a shame a little thing like what Grid does by way of little arrows off to the side to help your awareness of opposition given you can't turn your head as easily as in real life aren't there.

The V8's are our signature race series and it has been used to get new members to join OZFM. For any series recruiting new blood we need to think about their needs as well as our own.

When I first joined there would have been no way I was racing if every assist was forced off and I think some of the others in our lobby would think the same.

I have raced with former friend that was locking down every assist (except ABS) and running this as a public lobby. He would get guys in but most would leave during the race or before we started. The ABS was left on for me but I stopped using it a month or 2 into FM3 (was really on for him as it was the only assist he used at the time, lol). He did eventually turn some back on (brake line, no clutch and steering) at my request and drivers started to stay to race. This was under a public lobby setup, not a series.

I am not saying we should allow selected assists but the race organisers need to think about who will be racing in the lobbies and what they want to get out of the series. I think Clarkson's SX4 series was a great way to ween people off the braking line while driving low PI cars. I hope that this kind of racing or call it training can continue. FM5 is not far away and we have Grid 2 and soon Project Cars. Let the training continue and once FM4 is retired we may all (well most of us) use no braking line.

We know what assists (if any) most people use and I am sure that they would have this set that way for them selves regardless of how a lobby was set up. It is a shame you can not set the assist restrictions in the player buckets in the lobby setup. They can only be set globally in the lobby, for all drivers. If we could this could eliminate many of the problems we are having... T10 here is a great idea!

To force the use of the clutch, sim steering and a set view is one thing I feel we should not do. To me these are not really assists. They come down to the equipment we use to play. Big screen, small screen or even multi screen then we have wheels vs controllers and we even have a selection of wheels with different features such as Fanatec'c clutch pedal.

Some may look at a full race rig with wheel, full pedal set, H pattern shifter, multi screen. butt kicker, surround sound and built in stubby holder as an assist. Their mate might be sitting there on a milk crate with a 52cm CRT Tv, stereo sound, a basic XBox controller and a tinny in a busted old foam cooler. I can't see that as an assist...
Those guys with no wife or kids, can that be an assist?
Something to think about...

Remember guys that this is a Forza community for Aussies and Kiwis where we should be looking at all elements of the game not just the racing. Not everyone here is here to race hard. We have drifters, tuners, hot lappers, painters, designers, photographers, directors and auctioneers. Sim racing can now be accessed by everyone and the games allow all levels to race with the assists. Did you know that FM3 won an award for the most accessible game of that year? With all the assists available players with disabilities that would normally be unable to play had a chance to play Forza. From the disabled to the average player to the hard core pro racer, Forza has it all.

Great to see the comment rolling in and thank you for keeping them constructive and on topic.

G and Goomf are onto something that i missed in the drag tyre series' that ive run.

Normal or sim steering might need to be locked for the V8's.

As far as i know no one in tier 1 is using assisted steering, but we should make the lobbie settings set to Normal as the easiest option so that there is no temptation.

NoRecoil wrote:G and Goomf are onto something that i missed in the drag tyre series' that ive run.

Normal or sim steering might need to be locked for the V8's.

As far as i know no one in tier 1 is using assisted steering, but we should make the lobbie settings set to Normal as the easiest option so that there is no temptation.

For this series we ended up with these assists.

Suggested Line: open
STM: Off
TCS: ???
Braking: easiest = ABS
Steering: easiest = Normal
Shifting: easiest = Manual
Forced View: open

Unsure if it has been locked in the lobby but for once we decided to ban auto gearboxes, clutch is still optional. All other assisted options have been locked out as well (brake, steer). Don't know where TCS ended up after we got it all running but my original idea was open for Race tyres and off for Drag tyres.

I think all the comments on keeping it fairly accessible are the way to go for now. I reckon until you have a community that can have at the very least 3 full lobbies ready to race in a series (probably 4 or 5 really), accessibility encourages more to participate and the end goal of getting skill separation for specific rooms will slowly shape itself organically. (think I started to sound a bit hippy/wanker and that was the best emoticon I could find)

BTW, I tried locking out Auto once but some got really frustrated with all the chat and couldn't hear their revs. I beat someone because they missed their gear change on the final corner. He wasn't a happy chappy.

Goomf wrote:BTW, I tried locking out Auto once but some got really frustrated with all the chat and couldn't hear their revs. I beat someone because they missed their gear change on the final corner. He wasn't a happy chappy.

I am sure the chatting will be minimal and calling to pass is all that will be heard over the engine.

This can come back to my comment over equipment and environment. M$ headset in one ear, screaming kids in the other and the wife turning the volume down on the TV so she can chat to her mum on the phone. Impossible to hear the revs...

This whole discussion is about locking down assists. It will put some out of their comfort zone. To open the gears to Auto then turn off Brake Line or locking a view for all might give us more unhappy chappy's in the V8's. I am sure that all running in this series use manual with or without the clutch. Anyone who uses auto let us know.

So there is a third option for steering that i dont know about?

I always assumed there was only Normal and Simulation steering.

there's assisted, basically you will never tank slap when you make a mistake - it also takes steering control if your going to stuff up the corner and corrects it.

Even normal is very forgiving - especially in a MR car

Right,, well i had no idea!! Pretty sure iv read somewhere before FM4 came out that sim steer was for wheels and normal for controllers?

Not sure about the tank slap thing. Its easy to do when you start out with sim steering, but once i got used to it i never had any issues. Any body else feel the same?

sempeR wrote:
Not sure about the tank slap thing. Its easy to do when you start out with sim steering, but once i got used to it i never had any issues. Any body else feel the same?

Fast chicanes in the V8s are a great place to practice your tank slapping skillz or lack of skillz in my case. It's like in a real car though - you get a feel for when it's going to happen and therefore don't throw the second turn as hard (unless you are setting up a Scandinavian Flick!).

When I said "assisted steering" I mean the normal setting. On a particular setting screen it comes up as "assisted" even though you set it to normal. I'd have to put in Forza to see which screen that is but I've been switching between sim and normal to do drifto's.

For me sim is more responsive but has less margin for error also sim for me provides more feed back where Normal feels sluggish. I know if I want to smash curbs or over push a corner normal steering will prevent the car snapping back if I do get loose where as with sim I'd probably have to lift throttle to stabalise. That's why I think normal steering is an assist and in the V8 drag tyre races I'll be testing normal steering to see if I can get an advantage on worn tyres.

All in all we're talking about the least assistive assists and skill, setup and practice count for alot more than these. Having said that when one mistake costs you places because your pushing your limint and the guys around you are ready to gobble that up I'd rather be in the race with one or 2 of the said assists than lagging behind.... my experience in Dektra's Lotuses

If running no assists gave you a winning advantage how many people would be running no assists??? yep me for one

My personal prefrence is in car no assists but it's not possible all the time and not at all for some people for a variety of reasons.

anyone who isn't married and has kids = assist
hahaha I love it!

thinking that we are exposing a couple of new racing categories from all these comments.
ie events will become specialist events.

Is it worth dropping a FULL SIM event (no assists at all + in cockpit view + sim steering)
and then following the CASUAL class of same event (anything goes)
obviously numbers would dictate if it went ahead but maybe worth putting it out there.