Assists Discussion from v8 series

Braking line is an assist is it not? Its listed along with all the other assists.
so I would think if you using it you are also not allowed in lobby 1,
but hey im just this guy......whos not using it.....or any other assists.

and Don, theres only 2 rooms ya spaz!!! hahaha

It's just Mr T's way of making himself feel special...

He really needn't bother we all know just how special he is

Line's ok T as you cant always see the breaking markers, just no ABS or TCS.

I've started not using line and will end up turning it off once im more confident with others around me, really dont want to late brake into someone in a tuesday night series .

um no i was serious.
its like saying no rangas and then letting one in.
or like saying your car must be stock and allowing someone to run with an exhaust upgrade.
no assists = no assists
no prob if its in this series but if you guys are geniune about this being "pro" or "amatuer" (my words, i know) then lose the braking line.
How long you been racing these tracks??? cmon theres ways to find brake markers, just like the pro's do.
anyway point made, race on!

T has got a point, brake line is an assist, but so is normal steering apparenly and you can get stuffed if you think I'll run that

We can race without b/line on, Clarko's nationals have proved that. No b/line with just further the gap between those who have/make time to practice and those who don't/can't

If you don't have the line for lobby 1, I'm wondering how many times were set using it and have qualified for lobby 1. Does that upset the genuine make up of the room? Not trying to cause a stink, just curious.

Re the steering, I don't know if things were changed but I had always been told by several people that Normal steering was actually more sim than Sim. I'm not really good enough to know if I actually notice a difference.

moved this over here as im fairly certain that in my post about qualifying I stated that it was just the assists such as TCS, STM, ABS that weren't allowed. I did that intentionally so that we wouldn't have this discussion in that thread where it is not relevant to qualifying for this series. I could have just said assists and known that it would open up a heated discussion regarding race line, view used, transmission, steering type.

I agree with comments made regarding racing line and how long we have raced on each track, and think also that it may be something the top room can turn off for more of a challenge in other series. but as recoil has stated, in a Tuesday night series where the racing is a bit more competitive with larger numbers etc, for the moment keeping the line available is a good idea as it will help prevent as much carnage on a night where we get the most people and hence have the biggest gap in regards to skill and confidence.

please by all means continue discussing this abd put forward ideas erc but be aware it will not change any current series we have already started.

ih and don't let it turn into another locked thread.

Goomf wrote:If you don't have the line for lobby 1, I'm wondering how many times were set using it and have qualified for lobby 1. Does that upset the genuine make up of the room? Not trying to cause a stink, just curious.

No thats some good wondering goomf

Running without line would knock .5 to 1 second off my times untill i practiced a little.

I think we've proved in the past that the line doesn't necessarily make one go faster - but it almost certainly does reduce the time that you have to spend familiarising yourself with a car / track..

please know I didn't want to start an argument just that if we are looking to be the height of awesomeness as drivers then we should be dropping the B/L.

It tells you when to brake, this doesn't happen when your racing, go karts, cars, quad bikes, push bikes, bmx, slot cars, RC cars....you get the point.

View transmission and steering type are not assists, not listed as them either but as options.
The difference is OPTIONS vs ASSISTS.
Options alter how I choose to drive.
Assists alter how easy it is to drive. ultimately it is easier when you are told to brake vs when you are not told and must find a brake marker (whether it be a sign, fence, line on the ground ...whatever, it comes down to driver skill to get this right.
The guys who are good enough to drive in lobby 1 are, assumingly, the best skilled guys so take off the assists.

I see both sides of the point about braking line, but I must confess I had a ball running Clarkos National Suzuki series with the line off, having always previously been a supporter of the "always run the line for series events" idea.

Definately was a case of not knocking it until I had tried it more

Line is forced off again for the current A540 Pontiacs, and I enjoy it because everyone is in the same boat.

If others are running braking line in a series race then I pretty much always will so I have the same reference points as them when racing them closely but personally Id be not fussed if braking line was forced off as we already do it in the Monday night series and we have had some awesome close racing in that. cheers clarko.

And in my opinion it does make the track look ALOT nicer without the line. Food for thought anyway.

Whats everyone elses opinions on this?

Original Reapr wrote:Whats everyone elses opinions on this?

I'm easy either way - forcing me to practice a little more definitely wouldn't be a bad thing...

To use BL or not to use BL,
that is the question...

Its a been hard one, and its been discussed numerous times and at length in the past.

Guys who use it, and there are a number who usually race in the top lobby, have said that it helps them to judge braking better in close racing, while avoiding contacts that might happen otherwise. Basically because they don't need to look for braking markers. They may have other reasons as well.

Using braking line to facilitate close and clean racing is fair enough, since thats what OZFM has always tried to promote.

I'd also say that guys in the top lobby would put up similar qualifying laps with or without braking line after a very short time. Matter of fact I think its been demonstrated in the past, those that have done it can say so if they like.

At the same time Mr T's point is valid and theres no argument against it.
Theres nowhere in real life racing that a red line pops up in your HUD and tells you when to brake. Maybe in an FA18 but not in a V8 supercar anyway.

Using BL does make for faster lap times sooner on an unfamiliar track - because it shows you where to brake. If you then want to race without BL you still need to find braking markers to replace the BL.
If you want to race real close without BL and do it safely at the same time, you also need to memorise your braking points for the close racing situations when you can't see brakng markers.

So, maybe its the case that racing close and staying clean without BL is more challenging?

Thing is, we race online. The gaming/racing is a real life activity - but what we're doing is playing a game.
Games can be played by whatever rules people agree to use.
For some that means using a wheel and others use a controller.
For some it means avoiding any game features that they call assists, while others use the features to improve their game experience.

There is no level playing field in life or in this game - so trying to find one is a way to madness.
Some people get a better run in life, and some people are just better at this game than others.

It used to be that ppl could use the assists they preferred and their individual ability at playing the game made the difference in lap times and who they raced with.
For general competitions and the enjoyment of the game, whats wrong with that?

Personal preferences? mine is racing without BL or any other assists, because I enjoy it that way.
I prefer events that are set up that way, though I haven't seen one like that on OZFM for a very long time.
But I will enter events that allow assists for the enjoyment of all members, as long as helps us all enjoy clean, close racing.

Unless the OZFM community wants to compromise development and the limit the number of drivers per room to 8 -10 (or less), then BL has to allowed in Lobby 1. While the top 10 or 12 of Lobby 1 can no doubt get by without BL, I'd argue the bottom 4 or 6 of Lobby 1 could not (no offence intended - I'm in that bottom four!)

If I compete in Lobby 1, (which given the usual dropout rate/no shows each week I'll likely will be), I'll need BL turned on. If its switched off I'll cause accidents. I get 3 hours of Xbox time a week which is that of race night. I rarely get any practice time. This is to say nothing of my general incompetence irrespective of practice time - yes, I make quite a number of mistakes even with the assistance of the BL.

As a driver and racer, if I'm kept in Lobby 2 by virtue of BL restrictions, I'll never get any better and Lobby 1 will never be filled with 16 drivers each week.

Maybe it can come down to the amount of drivers that are wanting to take part. Try keeping lobby 1 as elite as pos, even if they don't have full room numbers and lobby 2 does. In the event a couple more want to attend and they're middle to lower racers in a lobby 2 environment, maybe then bump up 2 of the faster lobby 2 drivers and allow what they need to compete in the harder environment.

BTW, sometimes the BL has helped me when I get a bit groggy. It's good because it can keep me racing better/cleaner for longer but it's bad because driver fatigue is part of racing. Got a 1hr enduro on Monday with no BL after coming home from a 12hr shift. Will be interesting but looking forward to it all the same.

I do not want to deviate from the Braking Line discussion too much but what are the top drivers view on the other assists we allow...

* Normal vs Simulation steering, and
* Manual with clutch and without clutch.

Back to braking line,
I use it as like some others here I do not practice enough to learn every braking point. There is some tracks I can pull off a good lap but seconds will be lost on the least used tracks. The line is a great tool for online racing and for those doing monster working hours then racing the BL is even more valuable. If the series calls for it to be off then I will run as it is set.

To me this game is fun and being forced to run without the BL can add frustration to the game. I will never be fast enough to run with the pro group regardless of the assists used but as my assists stand I am having fun. The other assist I use also continue to keep the fun in the game. I have tried sim steering and did not like the feel. With the clutch I had major issues. I have changed the button config on the controller to make it easier but I find it impossible. With the M$ wheel it felt so uncomfortable swapping to a button instead of the pedal I have used for the last 20 years. I can not afford a Fanatec wheel setup so it is M$ wheel or controller for me.

As for the view assist I like the full mirror and open view over the bonnet. I sit a little to the right for that right-hand-drive feel. My tv is 96cm, not small, but I do sit 3m back from it so it can seem small.

My assists...
Steering = Normal
Race Line = Braking only
Gears = Manual (without clutch)
View = Hood/Bonnet

For any series the organisers need to see who the drivers are before they start locking down the common assists. If you are trying to get a pro group in then by all means cull the assists but if it an event to encourage clean and fun racing open up a few to give the guys a chance.

how many laps does it take to find brake markers for any track?
within 4 laps you know them and adjust as you go. These are tracks you guys have raced for 2 years now, some from fm3.
your all good enough to make the change imo
anyway great to see a healthy debate for a change, please mark the date as it seems Reaper and I agree on something (kinda). i dont think theres a right or wrong answer or suggestion, just a decision to be made at each series establishment from the series/race organiser.
If thats what they want thats what we go with.
PRO event vs Casual event perhaps??
Wolfy - you should be in admin, nice response
Sumo - im the exact same as you champ and having driven with you for ages, i know i can point the markers out to you and have you getting equivalent or better times within 15 mintues.
You def should be in the top lobby if you ask me, im also in bottom 4 no BL though (.... and i do drop a fair bit of BS from time to time ha.) I reckon youll be surprised once you get the technique down on how much clearer the view is like reapr said up there ^^
Goomf - dont drink drive, insurance wont cover you.

My assists...
Steering = Sim
Race Line = no f*cking way! thats for losers ....IM KIDDING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! haha
Gears = Manual full clutch (this is how a manage to eat v8 gearboxes and Vipers, Skylines, HSV's, lambo's ..not Teslas though)
View = Rear Far (when online) in cockpit (for single player)

Braking Line - I personally use Braking line (Braking only) because I do not have confidence in myself to judge breaking points during a race and end up Esteban Gutierrez-ing someone, which is not fun for anyone.

surferofthemind wrote:* Normal vs Simulation steering, and
* Manual with clutch and without clutch.

Sim steering - What a joke. Using a controller I find this incredibly difficult to use for a prolonged period, as there is a much lesser range of movement (ROM) in thumbstick as opposed to a wheel, and you (I) cannot keep up the tiny changes in thumb angle for an extended duration, I don't find it physically possible. Eventually i'll start doing full lock through fatigue (Not a realistic example of fatigue when compared to a wheel) and tank slap into anyone around me.

Manual Clutch - I'd like to see people migrating to manual from automatic if that is what they run, and onto manual with clutch if it is possible for them. I am aware that some setups do not allow for clutch to be used on their rig (Wheel users) and some people have dainty little girl fingers that can't hit A+X/B at the same time

I started using Manual Clutch when I started up with ozfm, except I didn't know about being able to swap the buttons to make A clutch, as such I altered the way that i held the controller to compensate for this. (Middle left on LT and L-Index on LB)


As for the Elite vs Casual lobby setup that has been brought up by a few members, both here and in other threads, I may decide to trial this with my Touring Cars. Having two championships, one for purist racing and those wanting the ultimate(?) challenge of no braking line and cockpit view, and then a separate lobby for those who wish to run assists of their choice.
All will be decided in time.

Interesting and pretty sure I have seen this debate before and then before that too!!!

I remember pushing a long time back to get people racing together regardless of assists used based on there lap times and finishng positions, it didn matter what assist you used, it appears we have evolved since those days, and as a forum grown, maybe or maybe not (be interesting to check participants back then to now in the V8 series)..

Absoloutly agree that Braking Line is an assist, and I have been using it.

Normal steering is just that, normal, so not really an assist more a preferance I think.

Manual with out clutch and automatic transmission is an assist.

And the others TCS, STM, ABS ovious assists.

Is helping others tune or build there car for them by the faster members so they have the competative edge over others an assist or just golden handshakes and smile, got a couple of them myself along the way as I'm sure others have as well.

And then being forced to use a set in game view so we are all equal, it starts getting a bit long and tiresome a bit like this post.

So doing full sim racing in a series on a non sim game, for me it just doesnt work, not on this platform, this game, these controllers.

Kinda figure a compromise between all the above has been the approach taken so we all could enjoy racing together or are we taking it to far for now or just got that much better and bigger as a forum and needing to challenge oneself even further, we could ask ourselves if it will be for the better or worse and would it cost some of the enjoyment of others around the ones that can.

Maybe future consoles and games and controllers might allow for a more realistic racing experience, and understand the frustration it can cause when racing others with any or all assists on and your not as a driver, but then thats there handicapp, and personally I admire the effort and ability those have that dont use any assists.

Be interesting to see how it goes for all assists of for the pro room and I'm sure they can make it work, but for me it sounds very competative and time consuming and honestly time I dont want to spend to be competative at the top level.

^^^ there will be others in the same situation as u razor who just dont have the time or patience to learn to race with all those off without being off the pace a bit.

Having said that, there would always (i hope) be the option to just say you dont want to be in that restricted a room for that particular series etc and there would be more than one person who would do so.

I dont think anyone here is saying that they want to never run any assist ever again, but just that they wouldn't mind it every now and then. Run a series here and there, or a no-assists room in a particular series.

Part of the reason we went with the 2 lap qualifying system for each race round in the v8s is because it means there is more chance for mistake from some of the drivers who very rarely (if ever it sems sometimes) make them. bringing in no driving line etc could mean more mistakes, yes it might initially lead to more incidents, but if people realise that they cant get quite as close to someone in certain braking zones without massive potential for carnage then it could bring excitement.

I personally would love some more no braking line racing if the whole room had it turned off. before joining ozfm thats all we ever raced was no line. but i found - like others- that it helped when things get tight, especially if others in the room are using it.

*thanks everyone for keeping it civil too, I was dreading signing on after work after the week I've had. Remember, everyone is entitled to their opinion. And sharing ideas and thoughts can help us out too*

** oh and MR T I wasn't trying to imply u wanted an argument to start, I was only saying that I didn't want one to possibly start in the qualifying thread and it ends up being locked. taking it out of that thread into its own topic also meant that people dont try to push one way or the other in the hope it will improve their chances in the series (hope that made sense - it did to me) **

Heres the best example of TCS bs ive seen in a while, it was during last nights RGL round at infinion.

Both me and twistie had been leading the times doing 1:34.7's in the fortnight before the race, we both put a shitload of time into our set ups and a heap of practice because were 1st and 2nd in the championship.

We started 4th and 5th after qualifying, and you guessed it the top 3 were using TCS - the guy on Pole did a 1:34.2 and wasn't using TCS the previous round. He went on to win by 5 seconds with twistie and i battling for 2nd and 3rd - we finished with a margin of 15m between our cars.

[/rant]

My blunt opinion (just opinion, not pointing people out)

As for line, i like that clarko's series isn't using it - makes for fun racing
Normal steering will give you and advantage in certain cars - especially MR cars, even with a perfect setup the car can and will still tank slap if you put it wrong.
View behind the car is an assist - you can see all the exits/apexs on every track a lot earlier then you can in car, its easier to place the car exactly where you want it once you get your head around it.

surferofthemind wrote:Back to braking line,
I use it as like some others here I do not practice enough to learn every braking point. There is some tracks I can pull off a good lap but seconds will be lost on the least used tracks. The line is a great tool for online racing and for those doing monster working hours then racing the BL is even more valuable. If the series calls for it to be off then I will run as it is set.

To me this game is fun and being forced to run without the BL can add frustration to the game. I will never be fast enough to run with the pro group regardless of the assists used but as my assists stand I am having fun. The other assist I use also continue to keep the fun in the game. I have tried sim steering and did not like the feel. With the clutch I had major issues. I have changed the button config on the controller to make it easier but I find it impossible. With the M$ wheel it felt so uncomfortable swapping to a button instead of the pedal I have used for the last 20 years. I can not afford a Fanatec wheel setup so it is M$ wheel or controller for me.

As for the view assist I like the full mirror and open view over the bonnet. I sit a little to the right for that right-hand-drive feel. My tv is 96cm, not small, but I do sit 3m back from it so it can seem small.

My assists...
Steering = Normal
Race Line = Braking only
Gears = Manual (without clutch)
View = Hood/Bonnet

For any series the organisers need to see who the drivers are before they start locking down the common assists. If you are trying to get a pro group in then by all means cull the assists but if it an event to encourage clean and fun racing open up a few to give the guys a chance.

I use the braking line myself, and I would preferably not like to turn it off, mainly due to the fact that I want to make sure I can keep a distance from the driver ahead and know whereabouts they're going to brake too.

Another point is the fairness to people in lobby 2. As I said before, I would prefer not to turn it off, so that means I would get put in room 2. This means that if I was the only one from lobby 1 put in there, my times on tracks would be 1+ seconds faster than most of the guys in that lobby. Is that fair to them if it means that as long as I don't screw up and make a horrible mistake, I'm basically guaranteed to win every race if I qualify at the front (which, as said before, lap times for qualifying). This isn't just me, there are 3 guys faster than me in lobby 1 (Semper outqualified me by nearly a FULL SECOND) and many others who are within a few tenths.

I'm mainly in this series for the enjoyment in a competitive environment. I want to be competitive but at the same time I'd also like to enjoy myself and take things seriously, but have a laugh and race with some mates on Tuesday nights.

surferofthemind wrote:I do not want to deviate from the Braking Line discussion too much but what are the top drivers view on the other assists we allow...

* Normal vs Simulation steering, and
* Manual with clutch and without clutch.

I use sim steering. It's quite snappy especially in these RWD V8s but the turn in response feels better and I find that it's made me a tad quicker. Going back to normal steering feels like driving a boat now

I use manual with clutch, the only reason being it gives an advantage over not using the clutch with better launch and gearshifts. This is a personal choice, too, if it's easier to run without hitting the left bumper or A (can be swapped) then by all means, use whatever makes you comfortable.

I do like running no braking line. In fact i just jumped into the v8's quali lobby setup i hosted on tuesday night and was only about 1.5 seconds off my best but i was inconsistent (very... sometimes 3 seconds slower or more if i really stuffed up). Its not the fact that i need the line its more i don't want to ruin a friend who i enjoy racing with's race/night because i can't consistently do x number of laps without possibly missing a braking point and spearing off the track or sliding into a corner. Taking out one of the friends you've had so much fun with over the years we have been racing together makes me feel like shit and therefore I don't find it fun. So until i am more consistent I wont be turning it off in a main series for the sake of those around me

But by all means if everyone else is in the same boat then its game on

My verdict is Fun series=Yeah why not
Main series=Maybe later but not right now ha ha.

I dont use any other assists except braking line in the corners and have always used sim steering. Peace out see you all on the track

I think Wolf pretty well covered my point of view.

One thing I'll add though. A few have mentioned that braking lines help stop them causing crashes. I tend to find the reverse. I use bonnet/hood view, and if I'm right on someone's tail coming into a corner, their car tends to block the view of the braking line marker. So, unless I have an external brake marker (shadow across road, marker, cones, etc.), then I don't know where to stop until the person in front of me hits the brakes. As Teeroy knows only too well - this tends to result in disaster! However, I still prefer to use it in the v8s as they are hard enough for me to control anyway, and the BL helps me keep fairly regular times without annoying drivers all around me.

I have been trying to run without braking line in single player just to get the hang of it. Without the feel of g-forces, the feel of loss of traction, and so on, it's very hard. You just pick a point, and then try to go later or earlier next lap until you've nailed it. The faster cars (R3 - R1) are (imo) much harder for this. The R1 cars in particular can pretty well stop on a dime from 250km/h and without braking line I find it super hard to judge that.

Regarding other assists, the only one I use is an automatic clutch. It is faster to use a manual clutch, but my paddles don't work, so I use buttons to change gears which leaves me with no button for clutch. And really - pressing a button to hit the clutch is hardly a sim. :-)

Because of the glitches Forza has on certain tracks and certain cars you can't take a global approach and say now room 1 turn off breaking line etc.... Try driving these V8's in car no breaking line on Lugna Seca..... If you don't know what I'm talking about try it, you won't like it at all.

I ran Dektra's lotuses (S class race cars) in car no assists except for the above mentioned track. Some tracks and cars are harder than others and the longer the race goes the more concentration required and chance of mistakes there are.

I'm wondering how many people posting here have run a series with no assists?

Clarko's Suzuki’s series still allowed Assisted Steering (normal), which was basically minimising the assist given the slow C Class cars but I did see people loose it in front of me and not tank slap... It is an ASSIST. Step that up to Clarko's G8's we're running now, heavy low grip cars that tank slap like a bitch and yep now it's a bigger assists. If you want to drift turn on normal steering and do skids yo. The current V8's on drag tyres at 60% + wear..... ASSIST, V8's on wide race tyres not really an assist unless you loose it or are helped to do so.

As far as car view is concerned that is car dependant. With in car view Forza "race" (not street) cars glitch the sky to whiten and glare the road/window/bonnet. Some tracks and cars are worse than others. Then there is mirrors which are good in some cars and none in others. If I now changed to out of car view it would take time for me to get up to speed.

To sum up my opinion..
1. No assists means NO ASSISTS. In car, no line, no other assists...
2. The car, build, track and race length have a baring on assist advantage so race organisers use discretion to allocate these.

For the V8's I'm leaving on breaking line because of the length of the races. Maybe assisted steering for the drag tyres... I need to do some more testing.


As a suggestion for testing/fun a race could be setup with 2 buckets assisted and non assisted half the drivers in each group/bucket. Do 2 races and the drivers swap buckets for the second race.