Roll off delays, restarts, rolling starts

Don Stylz wrote:Have to agree with stu & recoil on this one ..

I agree to some extent, but not if I was the one taken out by someone else's inability to drive with in there skills.

If we had NO restarts then at least we could penalize the culprut, that would mean hours of reviewing races. Not something I want to spend my life doing.

Not sure which way I stand on this. Both ways someone wins, and someone looses.

Fair enough dazz, there is always an innocent party in most acco's but these incidents will even its self out by the end of the season or series.

Rolling starts work in theory - but guaranteed you'll always have one overly excitable driver that will get stuck into the bloke in front because they feel the need to stay 1m off there arse in the form up lap.

Rolling starts would need a rule on there own - keep X meters between you and the car in front. Touch the car in front on the form up lap and cop a 30sec penalty to your end race timer. Or similar

Can I just say, Great discussion guys. We do need to look at this, and I am proud of the way this is going... Thanks.

I think drivers will take much more care with no restarts.

NoRecoil wrote:Rolling starts would need a rule on there own - keep X meters between you and the car in front. Touch the car in front on the form up lap and cop a 30sec penalty to your end race timer. Or similar

If not a 30 sec penalty then maybe a spot at the back of the grid.. if u can keep a distance in a form up lap then maybe last position on the grid would be there penalty.. ??

Don't worry guys, Nurburgring's first corner is a bitch, even the pros in real race's stuff that corner up more often than not.
Next week we have Indy, the first corner is piss easy!!
Bahahaha!

JamieWhincup#1 wrote:

baconterrain wrote:

Whittie260 wrote: I mandated NO restarts, damage your car and deal with it. Not a single person hit anyone else, it certainly worked well for us.

15 cars btw

+1 that's how it should be all the time, deal with it!

Agreed.

Also rolling starts would not necessarily work, Because seeing that the field is still in relatively close proximity to each other, people are still try stupid moves and since there is more speed involved, it would only end up causing more carnage.

First lap rolling start gives half of the track to warm tyres up = better grip = less likely to slide on start in first corner = less likely hood of accidents due to cold tyres, second half of track is formation setting up, lead driver controls speed in last half of track say 60 kmh to 100 kmh, and can increase speed to race speed from entering last corner to start finish line, no overtaking untill you as a driver has crossed the start finish line = distances between cars and distance between front end of field to end of field, which once again = less likely hood of race incidents on first corner, plus everyone is at race speed so = more intense racing but under a safer manner with less likely hood of incidents with collisions between drivers.

Not to mention the stratergy side of rolling starts, car setup, driver focus ect ect, there is far more positives to this than going nah wont work lets not try it. Oviously tracks would have to be selected acordingly to accomidate such a start.

We have all seen how this works on TV, there is a reason why they do it like that in real life...

I'm not sure if the rolling starts will work well in Forza someone will always get a jump....which will then 1st corner mayhem even more so, because the person with the run wont want to lift, so on and so on.

Personally I think everyone just needs to slow down on the 1st lap and take car if you are in the pack.
You cant win in the 1st lap or 1st corner of a race. Drive your car at 80-90% on the 1st lap, allow for temp to come up in tyres, allow the feild to sort it self out abit and then go back to the 150% that some race at lol...
The start and restarts and really starting to get to me....Getting penalised for something you have no control over is not fun, espeacially race after race....(when I say penalised I mean car or aero damage), which lets face it, makes a huge difference in these cars.

If there where no restart I dont think anyone will be more carful, if so we should be able to get it right in 1 go now....No restarts at all will jusy penalise people that have done nothing wrong, which isnt fun.

Ive always thought why not just go to "No Damage" after 3 restarts if you cant get it right, then at least if there is mayhem into the 1st corner you dont suffer for the rest of the race.

I would really like to see rolling start work in some way, just think it would be really really hard to police, and then if no one takes care on the 1st lap, then your back where you started.

+ 1 to Puttzy' sentiments, I think everyone needs to stop paying lip service to exercising a bit of caution on the 1st lap & ACTUALLY EXERCISE A BIT OF CAUTION ON THE 1ST LAP!

Better to lose a second or 2 (or 5-10 really) being cautious on the 1st lap & have an undamaged car as a result than to lose 20-50 seconds or more over the course of the race from damage caused by a silly or 1/2 arsed move on the 1st lap IMO.

Also, if someone is in front of you for god's sake LET THEM BRAKE, as sitting 2 inches off their butt into the braking zone proves nothing if you are going to hit them 90% of the time when they try to brake, only to say "Sorry" which means diddly when you rear of your car keeps getting pounded until you can't maintain laptime & then are overtaken anyway.

& my final point, if you tap someone & feel the need to say "sorry" generally that would mean its a good idea to lift off & make sure you didn't gain any advantage from knocking them about a bit. Lately I have seen alot of TAP "Oh sorry mate, I didn't mean to" whilst they person saying this is still overtaking or getting a run into the next corner on the car they just messed up. If you tap someone & get ANY run or advantage as a result (even if its a better run onto the next straight & hence the next corner as a result of contact in a previous corner) then BE FAIR & LIFT, DON'T JUST THINK THAT SAYING OH SORRY MEANS IT IS OK TO KEEP GOING & TAKE THE PLACE!!!!!

Not big drama's in the overall scheme of things because most of us race clean but it does need to be said.

+1
Well said Puttzy
Everyone just needs to make sure their brain is plugged in at the start of every race

I have to say i'm guilty of the bumper tapping on a few occasions (not too often though). Usually i do indeed brake earlier to leave some room, but then that leaves me a target for the blokes behind, which is a tad irritating but eh, i deal with it.

If i've got room i usually swing out, get a look at where the braking line is and then swing back in.

Envy The Best wrote:I have to say i'm guilty of the bumper tapping on a few occasions (not too often though). Usually i do indeed brake earlier to leave some room, but then that leaves me a target for the blokes behind, which is a tad irritating but eh, i deal with it.

If i've got room i usually swing out, get a look at where the braking line is and then swing back in.

Don't get me wrong Envy, everyone will do it by mistake occasionally.

I see where you are coming from also in saying you brake earlier if a car is in front of you only to be attacked from the guys behind you, as this whole concept only works if everyone is giving each other a bit of room & respect. However in this circumstance I say, let them get into you from behind if you have braked at a point to ensure you give the guy in front of you a bit of space. This way if they hit you then it is clear that THEY ARE AT FAULT for not allowing enough space for the cars in front of them to brake, especially if they haven't already pulled out from behind the car that they were apparantely intending to "overtake".

IMO nowdays this is a much better option than the alternative of seeing them coming in too hot, then getting out of your own braking to give them room & avoid the damage to your own car & running wide, only to have them run up the inside of you & say something like "gee you ran a bit wide there, lucky me" & take the position, all because you were trying to take responsible steps to avoid the accident that they were going to cause by being too agressive in the 1st place.

What I was referring to is the people that sit really close to pressure you when there is no one behind them, but they don't yet have the necessary skill or judgement to do this without constantly tapping into you into braking zones etc. It is my opinion that if someone can't sit this close without tapping into you & upsetting your car, then they should have the self control to back off a bit to a point where they feel comfortable that they won't tap into you every other corner & look for a clean move rather than forcing their way through with tap "oh sorry" tap "oh sorry" tap "oh sorry" tap then "Yay I won yeaaahhhh geez this lobby is a bit quiet, whats up guys???"

while I benefited greatly from the last reverse grid start in lobby 2, cleanly. starting from 9 or so, everyone went either wide or to the inside approaching the 1st, 2nd and 3rd corners, big wholes appeared and by the time we ran down the hill I was in 4th.
however, it does create the possibilities for constant restarts due to collisions more so than a normal start.

Consideration for Reverse Starts,
If, a restart is required then a neutral zone is applied, usually only 2 or 3 corners.
no-one in the neutral zone can pass, you must stay in formation.
The pace is dictated and gradually increased by the lead car.
It is the responsibility for everyone else to stay in line and up to pace.
Once the neutral zone is passed the race is on only when the lead car calls start. Race on!
The time difference between 1st and last should only be several seconds, probably in line with a normal start anyway!

RU

Sleuth 101 wrote:
We have all seen how this works on TV, there is a reason why they do it like that in real life...

Actually, They do it in real life because the most dangerous part of a race, especially for old/lots of cars, is the start. Bog down, stall, break a drive shaft etc and you're a sitting duck, especially due to reduced forward visibility with so many cars aroudn you. A lot of serious injuries are a result of stopped cars on the start line. Rolling start removes this danger, hence why it is done.

RU four 86 wrote:while I benefited greatly from the last reverse grid start in lobby 2, cleanly. starting from 9 or so, everyone went either wide or to the inside approaching the 1st, 2nd and 3rd corners, big wholes appeared and by the time we ran down the hill I was in 4th.
however, it does create the possibilities for constant restarts due to collisions more so than a normal start.

Consideration for Reverse Starts,
If, a restart is required then a neutral zone is applied, usually only 2 or 3 corners.
no-one in the neutral zone can pass, you must stay in formation.
The pace is dictated and gradually increased by the lead car.
It is the responsibility for everyone else to stay in line and up to pace.
Once the neutral zone is passed the race is on only when the lead car calls start. Race on!
The time difference between 1st and last should only be several seconds, probably in line with a normal start anyway!

RU

I like this idea but does the lead car actually have to call: "START!"... I doubt Mark Skaife does that when Holden is in first place on the rolling starts... :p

That would get my heart pumping if I was in second waiting for car one to start smashing it!

Gun Fir3 wrote:

RU four 86 wrote:while I benefited greatly from the last reverse grid start in lobby 2, cleanly. starting from 9 or so, everyone went either wide or to the inside approaching the 1st, 2nd and 3rd corners, big wholes appeared and by the time we ran down the hill I was in 4th.
however, it does create the possibilities for constant restarts due to collisions more so than a normal start.

Consideration for Reverse Starts,
If, a restart is required then a neutral zone is applied, usually only 2 or 3 corners.
no-one in the neutral zone can pass, you must stay in formation.
The pace is dictated and gradually increased by the lead car.
It is the responsibility for everyone else to stay in line and up to pace.
Once the neutral zone is passed the race is on only when the lead car calls start. Race on!
The time difference between 1st and last should only be several seconds, probably in line with a normal start anyway!

RU

I like this idea but does the lead car actually have to call: "START!"... I doubt Mark Skaife does that when Holden is in first place on the rolling starts... :p

I guess someone has to!,

in real life, they have the luxury of either a Green flag or lights...

RU

Whittie260 wrote:

Sleuth 101 wrote:
We have all seen how this works on TV, there is a reason why they do it like that in real life...

Actually, They do it in real life because the most dangerous part of a race, especially for old/lots of cars, is the start. Bog down, stall, break a drive shaft etc and you're a sitting duck, especially due to reduced forward visibility with so many cars aroudn you. A lot of serious injuries are a result of stopped cars on the start line. Rolling start removes this danger, hence why it is done.

That's it.
Exactly what I would of written but you beat me to it.

JamieWhincup#1 wrote:

Whittie260 wrote:

Sleuth 101 wrote:
We have all seen how this works on TV, there is a reason why they do it like that in real life...

Actually, They do it in real life because the most dangerous part of a race, especially for old/lots of cars, is the start. Bog down, stall, break a drive shaft etc and you're a sitting duck, especially due to reduced forward visibility with so many cars aroudn you. A lot of serious injuries are a result of stopped cars on the start line. Rolling start removes this danger, hence why it is done.

That's it.
Exactly what I would of written but you beat me to it.

Thats my whole point, It removes/reduces the chances of accidents and in our case potential car damage.

Anyways its a good discussion with varying opinions, I will still come up with something over the next week or so and then hopefully get the numbers who are interested in a fair trial to test a rolling start, thats really the only way we are going to tell if it will work for us or not. As said it worked well in a series a while back.

Still think its got a place in the reverse grid order races, but then if no likes it or endorses the idea, then scrap it and go with whats currently happening.

Maybe its just be more carefull but then we all should be doing that.

I reckon rolling starts have no place in a V8 series, races can be won & lost in the blink of an eye..

If people wanna restart, let em.. There's always gonna be carnage, and alot of it happens after the first 2-3 laps. Don't think a rolloff would benefit anyone except the person in 1st.

JamieWhincup#1 wrote:

Whittie260 wrote:

Sleuth 101 wrote:
We have all seen how this works on TV, there is a reason why they do it like that in real life...

Actually, They do it in real life because the most dangerous part of a race, especially for old/lots of cars, is the start. Bog down, stall, break a drive shaft etc and you're a sitting duck, especially due to reduced forward visibility with so many cars aroudn you. A lot of serious injuries are a result of stopped cars on the start line. Rolling start removes this danger, hence why it is done.

That's it.
Exactly what I would of written but you beat me to it.

Sorry what I was getting at was that when the pace car leaves the track then the leader gets to decide when he decks the pedals, everyone else has to react to the car in front of them.

In our case we could let the leading car decide when to take off within the Neutral zone. the Neutral zone would be the last quater of the track before the finish line...

https://ozfm.darkbb.com/t1938-arse-tonights-prac-run-and-tunes

read the OP on this link to the ARSE series, a simple as it sounds it worked.

HOwever
It was a set tune and no damage which allowed all cars under yellow flags to bounce off the rev limiter in 2nd gear so everyone travelled at same speed with no damage caused.
Tha actual start was called by the race leader as he hit a certain point of track with a called 3-2-1 GO with everyone hitting the gas on go.
The concept sounds insanely crap but it worked.

In this series it would not work in this fashion with diff gearing etc as posted earlier (by Dazz i think not sure)

What im saying is the general concept has been tested and it worked, i dont think its impossible and should be tried out.
Limit the speed to 80kms or something suitable each individual car/driver hit the gas as you cross the start line .

With larger lobbies the roll off is outdated.
And im certain that a form of rolling start would be better and without enjoying the load screens so often.

Sorry that last post was suppose to Qoute RU... anyway.

Wouldn't it be nice to have ghosting for the first lap. Then Race on.

There you T10 an idea for Forza 5... maybe even a patch.

iWolf wrote:The 1 sec gap start for race 2 in lobby 3 was ONLY used because we failed to get away cleanly on 2 mass starts. It doesn't happen all that often, but we do have first corner/lap incidents that wreck peoples races far too often.

The issue of Evo being out front is irrelevant because any other fast driver could have had a bad qualifying and bad race 1 and been on the front for race 2 as well.
Agreed we could have asked Evo to move aside at the start since he was a late arrival, but we didn't. Not a big deal either way

The underlying issue is lots of cars being in close company and/or guys being too ambitious trying to make up positions on the first lap while everyone is running on cold tyres and just getting into their rhythm. Specially so at the first corner!

When drivers make errors of judgement in these circumstances we end up with "accidents" and other cars can easily become involved because of the closeness of numbers of cars.

Sure, we can have a backup plan like delayed or rolling starts for the times when it goes wrong.

But since we're responsible drivers who want clean racing, the solution to the real problem should be simple:

**************
EVERY DRIVER, must be conscious of their position in the race field and allow racing room for other drivers around them.

At the first corner:
- remember ALL the cars are very close together, everyone is on cold tyres and the adrenaline is pumping.

- be prepared to brake much earlier than normal to allow for others ahead and around you as the field compresses at the corner.

- don't expect to take your normal racing line, allow room for other cars ahead and around you. Be prepared to take a tight or wide line depending on which side of the track you approach the corner.

- If a driver ahead makes a mistake, hold your line or go to the outside of the track to avoid him, so not to crash into a car beside you.

- do NOT attempt to make up places by over-aggressive driving.

- contact causing another car to lose momentum or race places MUST be redressed.
*************

Looking at this discussion I wonder if some guys actually understand the idea of clean racing and are interested in making that their main priority. Or is it a case of win first and damn the consequences for the other players. So many posts about how to recover from driver errors that shouldn't happen as often as they do.

I know Puttz and Reapr are on the same page as me about driving manners, because they said basically the same thing as I did in the post quoted above. First page of this topic.

I also agree with the "No Restarts" policy that NoRecoil suggested, but I want to do that with drivers who I can trust to try first and foremost NOT to hit other cars. Then when the occasional mistake happens I'll wear the damage and loss of position, because I know it was a genuine error, not just someone being overambitious or out of control. Before someone flames me, yes I make mistakes too and will doubtless continue to do so.

DRIVERS NEED TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR HOW THEY DRIVE.

DRIVE LIKE YOU STOLE IT, BUT DON'T WANT TO SCRATCH IT!

I totally agree with this, i think if you feel the need to apologise to someone you know you've f'd up and should relinquish the position if you've gained anything.

It's not rocket science, don't dive down the inside stupidly late

If you're behind someone in the draft travelling at a faster pace than the car in front, you know you gotta brake earlier.

And if you do take the inside line you better make sure you can stay on it coz you can bet the other person will be trying to hold position on the outside.. you'll need another corner or 2 to make the move stick.. so that means taking the next corner on the inside or out (depending on direction) if there's anything less than a meter 5 gap don't take the apex..

Running wide on exit will sometimes take both of you out, not cool.. Be aware of the cars around you, it's more important than the position you're in..

All we are doing is bouncing ideas and interest in as the topic suggests "Roll of Delays, Restarts, Rolling Starts" that is all.

Change is always hard to implement but its a changing enviroment/bigger lobbies and ideas are just that, ideas, trial it and then see.

Personally I have been involved in races where a rolling start has worked and worked well, its been used in races/leagues/series since FM2 maybe even earlier. The reason for this was to reduce first corner congestion and first lap incidents.

Oviously for this to even be considered to work it needs to have similar cars, on par with each other, ie wtcc, v8's, same spec tune races, GT Spec races, ect ect.

Anyways that is all, up to you guys.