F1 2013 - Driver movements

In case anyone hasn't already heard.

Lewis Hamilton has signed to drive for Mercedes GP in 2013.
Sergio Perez will relpace Hamilton at Maclaren.

That puts Michael Shumacher out of a drive, for now. I was very critical of Schumi in the early part of his career but changed to begrudging respect and then admiration for his performance at Ferrari and taking 7 Drivers championships. Despite being a flawed character and talk of team orders aside, when he was at the top of his game he was the best of the time.
His return to F1 has been anything but the 2nd coming that many of his fans expected. I hope he resumes his retirement so we can get back to remebering his achievements in his 1st F1 career.

I can't see Hamilton being happy at Mercedes for long, unless they come up with a better race car.
But it'll be interesting to see what he can do for them.

The move to Maclaren should be a great chance for Perez, he's shown good form this year and has some of Button's smoothness which could help the team with feedback and development.

I wonder who will get the vacant seat at Sauber?

Wow. I honestly thought Hamilton would stay put. And with Perez going to Mcclaren is Massa safe at Ferrari?

I was reading last night that Mclaren offered him an extra $2mil per year to stay but that was still essentially a pay cut from his current contract. Money talks!

Hmmmm when it comes to Hamilton I'm a bit jaded, he's a talented driver but always acts like a brat when things don't go his way, and does Mercedes have the car and team to challenge a World Championship next year? I don't think so, maybe 2014... For all the issues I have with him (and there is an endless list) Schumacher dragged Ferrari to those first World Championships to his credit. Does Hamilton have that same sort of Leadership ability and maturity? A couple of years in the wilderness might do him good. It certainly seems to have helped Raikkonen...

SunCrossed wrote:Hmmmm when it comes to Hamilton I'm a bit jaded, he's a talented driver but always acts like a brat when things don't go his way, and does Mercedes have the car and team to challenge a World Championship next year? I don't think so, maybe 2014... For all the issues I have with him (and there is an endless list) Schumacher dragged Ferrari to those first World Championships to his credit. Does Hamilton have that same sort of Leadership ability and maturity? A couple of years in the wilderness might do him good. It certainly seems to have helped Raikkonen...

Raikkonen didn't need helping. He won a championship in 2007 and was challenging for titles many years before that. He's become less brash, sure, but he's always been consistent. Also more unspoken.

Raikkonen after winning in 2007 started living the "rockstar" lifestyle and under performing it's why Ferrari let him go and McLaren didn't want him back. There were lots of questions about how motivated he was. Never said he wasn't any good, but it's clear the last 2 years out of the sport has changed him for the better.

My apologies, I thought you meant performance wise. I have to agree with you on the rockstar point then.

Zabbey21 wrote:My apologies, I thought you meant performance wise. I have to agree with you on the rockstar point then.

Sorry vote was meant to be positive! Sorry didn't realise what it was till I clicked on it sorry!

All good buddy

My prediction for Massa is they want someone with experience but not as quick as Alonso so the Spaniard doesn't crack the sads when his teammate is beating him. This points to a couple of people:

Kamui Kobayashi
Nick Hulkenberg
Daniel Ricciardo (if they want to take a gamble)

lol, don't like Alonso? I'd like it to be Ricciardo, he's got potential, would be great to have an Aussie in Ferrari. But the other two have driven well this season I like Hulkenberg. Good on Perez for making it in McLaren, I think he's a good second to Button, but definitely has the potential to out drive him too. Should be an interesting season next year, not that this one hasn't been, best in years.

It's not that I don't like him, it's just that the last time his teammate was beating him, he raced for McLarem and Lewis beat him in his rookie year

lol yeah good point, I think he's changed a lot since then, he's probably the best on the track this year, he's driving the hell out that Ferrari and it isn't that good.

iWolf wrote:Despite being a flawed character and talk of team orders aside, when he was at the top of his game he was the best of the time.

I think this type of comment is amusing and confusing, I think all the drivers have to be pretty good to get to F1 so are all entitle to a bit of ego issues – at least in the modern era. So onto the team orders comment that is most confusing to me. Ok apologies but this might come across as a bit of a rant, but hopefully it's somewhat educational or enteraining, here are my points:

1. It IS and always has been a TEAM sport, this is not go-karting or the olympics and life is not fair.

2. As far as team orders go, what goes around comes around for most decent drivers – and otherwise if they can be impressive enough and want to switch teams to be a number 1 driver at a different team that is their choice.

3. Massa, Barrichello, and Coultard will all be remembered as very good drivers, but I make them a special group that excelled as brilliant team support drivers who successfully help their teams win both championships with their team-mate getting the #1 spot. However, these 3 should be awarded a special bit gold star of disgrace in the records for their involvement in team-orders that make them look like precocious brats and bring the sport into disrepute in Hockenheim, Austria/USA and Melbourne.

4. Mark “not bad for a second driver” Webber is on the cusp of this group, however his achievement in supporting his team mate haven't been as exceptional, and his “call a spade a spade comments” when he wins is adding entertainment more than controversy.


Suggestion MSC's record is tainted by talk of team orders just doesn't hold up. I just trawled through the stats a little to see how his results compare to his team mates – this is by no means definitive or very scientific but as there is some element of truth in good humour, so too there is some truth in stats.

So I'm just listing total wins, wins ahead of team-mate, number of times gap to team mate is less than a second.

NOTE: team mate coming second doesn't gaurantee team orders, but it was possible – there would be other times where team orders cause a driver to do a dumb race strategy to get in the way of the other team and not finish second. In that case they are clearly playing patsy and it's more of their problem rather than a slight on the driver going for the win.

NOTE: more speculation is that only the races where a team mate can finish within about 1 second is when they have been ordered out. There's valid times where the 2nd driver might have backed away for reliability / safety – however if they wanted the world to think they could take it to their team mate they should show it... lets see the numbers as they are interesting.

Schumacher
91 wins total, 24 ahead of team mate 2nd ( 26% ) , 5 times within a second (all BAR)

Barrichello
11 wins, 6 ahead of team mate ( 54% ), 4 times within a second (all MSC)

Massa
11 wins, 3 ahead of team mate ( 27% ), 0 times within a second

Irvine
4 wins, 2 ahead of team mate ( 50% ), 2 times within a second ( Salo and MSC )

If I remember correctly, MSC had his work cut out for him to not beat IRV on his return from a broken leg in Malaysia in 1999 – I don't think there was any offensive / controversial slowing down on the main straight to let IRV pass, but he might have done an extra pitstop.

If MSC was going to run second to his team mate he finished within a second 5 out of 6 times, and the sixth he was 1.347 behind BAR. There is NO DOUBT he wanted the world to know he was every bit as good as his team-mate and if there were no team orders he might have got the win.

BAR on the other hand managed to be within a second of MSC 4 out of 17 times he follow him across the line...

IRV and HER were finishing 20-50 second behind MSC on the occasions they ran second to him...


If you want to throw some wild speculation in, you could suggest :
BAR could have one 5 more times at MSCs expense,
MSC could have one 4 more times at BARs expense and one more time from IRV...
BAR would end up with 1 more win and IRV 1 less win due to team-orders, oooh the evilness.




So the point I'm getting to is that team orders probably just didn't make that much of a difference – sure there was a run in 2002 when the ferrari was the dominant car that fans might have got the impression that MSC was winning on team orders as there was a run of 1-2 finishes but some went the other way too...




And MSC can how retire happy knowing he has taken back the most grand-prix contested record back from BAR just so BAR has nothing over him. I think getting that record back was probably a significant motivator in the come back, and he probably likes driving really fast cars and F1 cars are pretty fast so you can't really blame him eh. Now there is 20 races a season this record could be broken quite quickly but I don't know if the modern drivers have staying power like MSC but I might be wrong.

sillybilly77 wrote:

iWolf wrote:Despite being a flawed character and talk of team orders aside, when he was at the top of his game he was the best of the time.

I think this type of comment is amusing and confusing, I think all the drivers have to be pretty good to get to F1 so are all entitle to a bit of ego issues – at least in the modern era. So onto the team orders comment that is most confusing to me. Ok apologies but this might come across as a bit of a rant, but hopefully it's somewhat educational or enteraining, here are my points:

1. It IS and always has been a TEAM sport, this is not go-karting or the olympics and life is not fair.

2. As far as team orders go, what goes around comes around for most decent drivers – and otherwise if they can be impressive enough and want to switch teams to be a number 1 driver at a different team that is their choice.
...

This thread and my post were about driver movements announced for 2013, the comments about MSC were included becasue he finds himself at this stage without a drive.

But now you've confused me with your post, so I'll clarify what I meant.

Like I said in other parts of the post I am a fan of the man. So if you interpret my comments otherwise, well you just plain got it wrong.
Now at the risk of setting you off again the "flawed character" reference relates to Schumi's multiple intentional driving transgressions against other drivers over the years. All documented at length, but we can start with him helping Damon Hill out of the AGP in Adelaide, then you can go on to numerous other cases.
Flawed? certainly, but it was just his lust to dominate those around him and not be beaten and he's not the only one.

As for the team orders thing, you're right it is a team sport and I didn't say or mean otherwise. Its a point that commentators and reporters have brought up often. I don't think team orders made a big difference to the eventual championship results either. Its natural that a team will do what it can to get both championships. As for the speculation about other outcomes that might've happened - they didn't.

Haha, maybe original quote should have just been :

iWolf wrote:talk of team orders aside,

Agree with you clarifying points that team orders aren't too significant overall - hey I think the was included in my post too.

It's amuses me that people, including commentators, drop in comments like that. I was having a bit of fun because you did too. Even tho now you agree it's an irrelevent :p

iWolf wrote:This thread and my post were about driver movements announced for 2013, the comments about MSC were included becasue he finds himself at this stage without a drive.

Well maybe msc will end up at sauber' he could probably buy a midfield team if he really wanted to keep driving f1 cars. I think I covered my theory on why he will retire again.

iWolf wrote: lust to dominate those around him and not be beaten and he's not the only one.

And as senna showed this too and he also proves that these actions can be forgiven when the racing is over. Woah sorry that's getting way off topic and we probably don't want to go there.

I hope PER does well at mclaren - he has had some brilliant drives this year, especially impressive on live timing splits.


Will williams change drivers? I think their car this year is generally underrated and it would be good to see a better driver have a go with it.

sillybilly77 wrote:Well maybe msc will end up at sauber' he could probably buy a midfield team if he really wanted to keep driving f1 cars. I think I covered my theory on why he will retire again.

iWolf wrote: lust to dominate those around him and not be beaten and he's not the only one.

And as senna showed this too and he also proves that these actions can be forgiven when the racing is over. Woah sorry that's getting way off topic and we probably don't want to go there.

I hope PER does well at mclaren - he has had some brilliant drives this year, especially impressive on live timing splits.

Will williams change drivers? I think their car this year is generally underrated and it would be good to see a better driver have a go with it.

Sauber team is showing well this year and have already expressed interest. But I hope Schumi hangs up the driving gloves again. I wonder if his recent crashes may be 'cause he's already thinking about something else.

LOL, I was thinking of Ayrton when I mentioned other dominating drivers. Left it out because I didn't want to hijack my own topic. He changed F1 hugely with his desire to win and determination to be the best. Can still see him sitting in the pits with just 2mins of qualifying to run then going at and putting down 1 incredible hot lap to take pole. In races his commitment to overtaking had other drivers intimidated and his battles with Prost at Mclaren are part of the legend.

As for Williams, I remember a comment by Ayrton referring to his nephew being faster than him, thats Bruno. And I have to wonder what difference it might have made to Bruno if Ayrton was there to be his mentor.
Maldonado has made some poor decisions in races but has shown speed, I think Senna needs some better results otherwise it'll only be his sponsor money that keeps him in a drive.

iWolf wrote:Now at the risk of setting you off again the "flawed character" reference relates to Schumi's multiple intentional driving transgressions against other drivers over the years.

Flawed? sure, who isn't? It is not worth mentioning, however you could note he is basically an apprentice to Senna/Prost who pioneered the art and success of similar malpractice as professional racing drivers. It is all history, there is good and bad...

iWolf wrote:start with him helping Damon Hill out of the AGP in Adelaide

haha seriously? You could at least use the 1997 incident as it is much more dubious...

I was going to let it go but it is too funny. I think the anti-MSC bias in the commentary over the last 15 years has added comedy entertainment however it is a bit sad sometimes if it affects peoples opinions of peoples reputation.

Check out youtube of the accident (turn the sound off to avoid the commentary) and have a look from both on-board shots

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kW0t4Ug11v8

What I think happened was that Hill threw away the championship with a clumsy overtake attempt.

Hill initially went the wrong side, otherwise he would have passed well before then corner. Looks like Hill hesitates and then changes his mind and starts to pass then just puts his front wheels next to the benetton sidepod...

There were no blue flags and Hill went in way too late, do you think seriously any other respectable F1 driver would have opened the door to let him through?





Ok and for some more good humour, here are a couple more clips of Hill's clumsy attempts at passing that result in accidents. These are pretty FUNNY (now):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlsLF7nUUWk&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKRveUU6Fig&feature=related



back on topic...

I think frank has spent Bruno's $30+mil of sponsor contribution already, maybe kept some in the bank to pay someone to drive next year. Results are too poor / inconsistent – I think he is the weakest link and should be replaced. I think MAL also brings big sponsor money to the team – the guy can steer a car, but he is clumsy like Hill and will only win went the stars align and he has the best car / setup / strategy – I don't think he will manage to get into a competitive car to be a title contender.

I'd go so far to say that some of MAL's impressive performances are likely due to the quality of the car – shame SEN has underperformed in those situations – which gets back to the point in previous post regarding the car being underrated.

HRT have locked in de la Rosa ?... ha ha, maybe they could get badoer in the other car

MAS is not getting enough points off other teams for Ferrari to keep him, however ALO is so consistent he is going to win this year anyway. Tough call if Ferrari keep him or not.

Schumacher to Stone Brothers/Erebus Racing 2013

sempeR wrote:Schumacher to Stone Brothers/Erebus Racing 2013

How awesome would that be

JamieWhincup#1 wrote:

sempeR wrote:Schumacher to Stone Brothers/Erebus Racing 2013

How awesome would that be

We need to make one of those online donation things to get his pay check up.

This would be awesome

Michael Schumacher has announced that he will retire at the end of the 2012 season.

Schumacher and Sbr/Erebus just got 1% more likely.


That's a 2% likelihood!

I am a huge ferrari fan and they are the team that I support. I like the idea of having massa replaced with the other Australian driver (Dan R) but I just dont see them taking that much of a gamble. With perez out of the running now, I actually think they should be looking at Di Resta.

Dan Ric can speak italiano, his parents are italian, his surname is italian he is basically italian but he is Aussie which makes him that much cooler and so Ferrari should take him.